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Thursday, April 13, 2006

Some hate mail... WHO is this guy??

I assume he is elva's son who was one of the two children taken before she had the three girls? Elayne, can you elaborate? I don't think he is part of the paternal family...?


Date:
Wed, 12 Apr 2006 23:34:55 -0400
To:
jeffreyslaw@cogeco.ca
Subject:
Jeffrey Baldwin
From:
FRED CROTTA

Amanda Reed,
Where do you get off interfering in family matters? Why do you feel the need to fight for someone you don't even know? Do you not have a life of your own? I truly believe you should consult the family before broadcasting a plaque memorial when the family hasn't been consulted. I'm sure his family would have quite a bit to say about you interfering with their personal losses. I know I do and none of it can be stated in this email, due to proper ettiquette. Being his uncle I thin k you should butt out! This is a family matter and last I checked you weren't family.
F. Crotta

My response:
That's unfortunate then because I WON'T butt out of this! YOU should have done something... he's not yours anymore. He will be the catalyst for change for all future children in this country! It's good you didn't swear because I'm posting your letter on my blog... feel free to visit me there and voice yourself, you won't offend me, though I'm SURE you must have SOMETHING better to do with your time!

By the way, I'm thrilled I'm not part of your family!

Amanda Reed
Jeffrey's Law Organization

142 comments:

Anonymous said...

I can't even come up with a viable explanation for that outrage (though it sounds similiar to other posts on this blog earlier in the year) - I would think he would be outraged along with you/everyone else, considering what he experienced in his young years with Elva. Yes, he was the adopted-out son on the Fifth Estate show and there was a picture of him shown as an adult with Elva, when he reunited with her.

I wonder what Elva's and Norman's cellmates think of the Fifth Estate documentary?

Anonymous said...

To Fred Crotta...Amanda is right and I'm sure everyone would agree.... YOU of all people should have done something. Shame on you...you are just as guilty as the entire paternal family. After all you went through and you just sat idly by???? There must be a genetic deficiency within your brain as is with your entire paternal family.
Do you have kids. Do they look like Jeffrey too??? I guess that's normal for you...right.
How do you sleep at night. I know I can't!!!!

Anonymous said...

If indeed this message to Amanda was sent by Elva's adopted-out son, then it is apparent that there was some very heavy damage to his brain endured at Elva's hands when he was admittedly abused by her. (To give him the benefit of the doubt - which there is not much left of).

How else can you explain the twisted logic wherein he argues in the posted letter that non-family members ought not interfere in the matter and on the other hand, his allowance for his interview on a nationally televised show about Jeffrey's case.

The show was directed to members of the public who have a right to know about events such as this as part of news coverage which has been ongoing and which are not private. Obviously it is everyone's business when a murder is committed. That is why the Crown prosecutes murder on behalf of the state, meaning the public.

If "Mr. Crotta" was so opposed to any "interference" why did he grant the interview - why not keep things to himself?

This obviously does not make any sense and I am truly hoping that it is not Elva's son who wrote this idiotic letter.

If Elva's son is reading this, please retract and apologize or otherwise confirm this is not your letter, thanks.

Anonymous said...

Jeffrey Baldwin's short life was ruined and ultimately ended by his so called "family". All citizens of good conscious now mourn for him and have a responsibility to ensure that his death was not in vain.

Thanks to the efforts of Amanda and others, people now know how this child lived and died, and we will remember him as a little boy and not just as a murder statistic.

His legacy will be far greater than any of his family, or the rest of us for that matter.

Anonymous said...

Oh no. Please guys, let's keep this where it belongs. We have went through this many times trying to keep things on track.

Amanda, that email was sent to you privately, in my opinion that was not nice to display it.

I have never met Frank and it was news to me that I discovered watching the show last night. He is Elva's son, not any part of the paternal family. I can verify that as I am close friend's of the paternal family.

I understand what he means about the memorial/plaque should be represented by the family. They were there and they do care.

You have done wonderfully about what you are doing but this is all painful and everyone has their own feelings which are different from yours.

Everyone is emotional from the time we first received the news about Jeffrey's death. I was at his funeral and words cannot describe how surreal it was being there. Please, keep this on track.
JULIE

Anonymous said...

...also, perhaps you would like to sit over coffee and hear what the paternal family has to say? I know Jeffrey's paternal aunt would like to and I would be more than willing to. You have gone out of your way and you are commended.

So how does this sound? You can get an inside glimpse.
JULIE

Anonymous said...

Julie: I do not know who you are, but your postings are becoming more and more disturbing.

I am grateful that Amanda posted this letter. It further demonstrates that the "family" is not Jeffrey's, they are a twisted Mafia that have no capacity for compassion, empathy and love, and all of them ought to be in jail.

We, the concerned and outraged citizens of Ontario are Jeffrey's constructive loving family - and we will see that justice is done.

Nothing will stop us, and NONE OF THIS IS PRIVATE!

Anonymous said...

Please provide me with your definition of 'disturbing' please....

Are you distrubed just because of what I say or because I am trying to send a message about the paternal family and that not everyone is like the Bottineu/Kidman family? I can't believe how close minded some people are.
JULIE

Anonymous said...

Julie: That is the pot calling the kettle black. I think you are obviously the one who is close minded if you cannot turn your mind to the possibility that they are less than perfect, maybe even culpable and beyond that that THIS IS A PUBLIC MATTER.

If you wnat things private, you obviously support the CAS and the monsters who killed Jeffrey, becuase that's the way they like it too.

Anonymous said...

Amanda PLEASE stay away from this dysfunction family. You don't put yourself at risk by meeting anyone of them.
What she is doing Fred, is something many many people in this Province are doing, mourning a child, and asking for change, perhaps the children in this family, do mean nothing more them welfare checks, You were in this house and NO ITS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE, YOU SAW JEFFERY, YOU STATED IN THAT INTERVIEW, HE REMINDED YOU OF HOW YOU WERE TREATED, THEM WHY WHY ON EARTH DID YOU NOT LEAVE AND CALL 911.

THIS IS THE PUBLICS BUSINESS, THIS FAMILY IS ALL BRAINLESS, WHAT IS IT??
I HAVE NEVER SEEN A BUNCH OF LOW LIFE PEOPLE IN ONE SHOW. THAT INCLUDE THE CCAS MARY MC CONVILLE TO MUCH MAKEUP ARROGANT . SPIN. NO ONE CAN TOUCH US ATTITUDE. SHE ALSO NEED SOME EXERCISE. But what is most shocking is that none of you even understand is this is the public right to know, and try and make changes, if your families cared you would have done so yourselves. There is absolutely no justification for anyone that knew what was happening in that house, to have not reported it NONE, not only has Jeffery died, but his siblings souls have been taken, by two very evil people, who should never had children. Two have been murdered two taken, your sister Fred was sexual assaulted, you drank from a toilet bowl, how could you go forgive this monster and not run with Jeffery, his birth parents knew,
its NOT ROCKET SCIENCE, and NO they should not be allowed children. Not now not ever.
none of you should. But nor should CCAS.

As many of us not just Amanda do what perhaps some of your family should be doing, trying to ensure this never happens again, and not sweep it under the carpet, as some family secret.( CCAS would like nothing more) as we push for oversight and to try and make changes in Jeffery's name, because he is at LEAST worthy of it death, he was worthy of much more in life.
your family could have asked the questions, why did she have the children when she killed one two other removed, was able to keep 3 daughters, baby sit with CCAS approval, OTHER people children, and look at her daughters, they are by no means rocket scientist either, did anyone of you finish high school, you DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN TILL YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO OFFER THEM, GET IT, THAT MEANS AN EDUCATED PARENT. AT LEAST HIGH SCHOOL.
A JOB AND INCOME TO SUPPORT THEM.
PERHAPS A PARTNER THAT YOU GET ALONG WITH, THAT CAN ALSO OFFER THE CHILD A DECENT LIFE. A SAFE HOME, ENOUGH COMMON SENSE TO UNDERSTAND THEY ARE NOT OBJECTS, THEY DO NOT FULFILL YOUR NEEDS, YOUR A PARENT TO FULFILL THERE'S FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE IF NEED BE.
YOU DO NOT HAVE A BABY TO KEEP A COUPLE TOGEATHER,

YOU DO NOT HAVE A BABY FOR MORE WELFARE MONEY.

YOU DO NOT HAVE A BABY, SO YOU WILL HAVE SOMEONE TO LOVE YOU.
LOVE YOURSELF, AND UNDERSTAND UNTIL YOU DO, YOU HAVE WORK TO DO. BABY'S DON'T LOVE YOU THEY NEED YOU. YES THEY BOND. AND BREAKING IT CAUSE LIFE LONG HARM.GET IT

DON'T HAVE CHILDREN TILL YOU CAN AFFORD. AND CAN AFFORD THE COST YOU NEVER EXPECT.
CHILDREN ARE NOT OBJECTS. WE WERE ALL ONCE CHILDREN, IF YOU CAME FROM A FAMILY AS DAMAGED AS JEFFERY'S,
YOU NEED A GREAT DEAL OF HELP, BEFORE EVEN TRYING TO PARENT.
ITS NOT FAIR ITS MORE THEN NOT FAIR ITS EVIL, HOW YOU ALL DID NOT EVEN THINK OF THE CHILDREN BEFORE OF YOUR OWN NEEDS. OR PERHAPS YOUR ALL NOT CAPABLE,
I HAD NO IDEA FAMILIES LIKE THIS REALLY EVEN EXISTED.

ASK WHAT YOU CAN DO TO HELP, SO WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU, TO JEFFERY TO YOUR SISTER, NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN.

Anonymous said...

I did not send that letter and Amanda you could of found out,

Anonymous said...

"All of them ought to be thrown in jail"? Yes, the whole Kidman/Bottineau family and their spouses should be but I see that most feel that the paternal family ought to be also, and I am sorry you feel that way. I will not push my point any further, I know which line I stand on which I thought was the same as the rest (CCAS and the whole household of the Bottineau/Kidman family) and I see that I am casted out as a supporter of the paternal family which is Jeffrey's 'other' grandmother and others seem to disagree.
JULIE

Anonymous said...

Mafia, lol no Jeffery's family is not mafia, the CCAS I am sure have contacts to the Mafia, even the Prime Ministers office did, but they are smart and crafty, please don't insult the mob, this family is and sorry even Jeffery's paternal family, not educated enough to even get their own children out of the hands of a monster, if they had concerns, and Richard he seems like an idiot brainless. why did the aunts not watch over the children as well if they cared so much, I would have never stopped trying if it was my family NEVER.
I hope you understand, this has harmed a great deal more then your family.

Anonymous said...

To the last poster, I can understand what you are saying, however, you are disregarding another quality even very stupid humans are known to have, and that is capacity for love. Regardless of the stupid factor, the love of a child should have spurred them on to take action - that is why I say these people are only self-interested, as illustrated by Ms. Dimitriadis' comment to the media that it was "too expensive" to fight CAS. I hardly think money would be my concern when the life of a child is at stake. I would stop at nothing to get help.

Anonymous said...

alot of anger here on this blog. My opinion..I don't think this is a family issue any longer, it has been made public, people have been brought to justice. I think this case is unbelievable. That this can happen to a helpless child, in a city in 2006. The children's aid are implementing background checks now? Why now? and why not thirty or more years ago? Imagine how many children there are out there living in canadian homes being abused?. I hate to say it, but this can't be the only case. Just the only one we know about, in recent histroy.
I cried for Jeffrey, and I do not know him, nor have I met him. If I did know him you better believe that i would not sit around, doing my daily activies (playing video games, going to work) as a helpless child was dying in front of me. Shame on you, who did! if you can't look after a child, there are loving families out there that can, and would have welcomed Jeffrey with open arms into their lives! poor baby Jeffrey. He is an angel now, and happy for once in his life, and I am sure he has forgotten the horrible things that happened to him.

Anonymous said...

Keep out of the family's buisness this moron says...
People minding their own business is the reason why Jeffery is dead.

Instead of brooding over family points keep it simple. Silently watch a child's torcher and you are just as much to blame as the ones who are causing it.

Anonymous said...

Yes he is Elva's son who was abused by them also the guy who had seen Jeffrey and did nothing shame on you.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Crotta - you and you kin are COWARDS.

SHAME ON YOU. What goes around comes around, so when you least expect it...

Anonymous said...

I really wish you SICK people would STOP!!!!!!We have jobs I think your getting the FAMILY wrong. The Bottineau/Kidman clan and Fred are the ones on welfare and have kids to support them not the other side .Richards side (accept Richard)work's hard for their money and raise there kids right.But if it's makes you feel good to put us down go ahead.Just remember the adults who seen him everyday!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Any and all people who saw Jeffrey Baldwin in the condition that he was in, and who did nothing should go to jail. But what is interesting is that the CCAS has been rather silent on the others. Now if this was a case where they had not placed Jeffrey with 2 convicted child abusers it would be a different story. They would be all over this.

And as much as the CCAS is DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS - so are each and every single person that did nothing and that also failed Jeffrey. All people involved should be held to account.

I also think that the borders, friends of the culprits and anyone else who failed him should be locked in a cell with the evil pieces of crap that killed Jeffrey.

Anonymous said...

What happened to Jeffrey IS A MATTER THAT IS OF DIRE CONCERN TO THE PUBLIC. And let's not forget that the many crimes of the CAS are due to the "private" way in which they conduct business - which alone paves the way for abuse of power, ineptitude and negligence.

Anonymous said...

It is very sad that this man has chose to attack Amanda. It is also a really ugly development. It was sheer hatred, and evil that killed Jeffrey by vile, sick murderers.

There is no defense for them. If the family of those rotten heathens were responsible Jeffrey would still be alive. With respect to those in the family who did not see him, and who were not aware of what was happening to him no I do not blame them. But I do blame anyone that ever got a glimpse of him after he was given to the rotten, evil pigs that destroyed him.

And in jail they should be fed one slice of bread, and water daily - further they should not ever be allowed to see the light of day.

Anonymous said...

You know what is really chilling is that the murderers will have more rights and even comforts in jail then Jeffrey ever had in his own life.

Anonymous said...

My question about this is do people really think the email is from the son of the murderer? And as well God only knows what type of life he had after he was sent to care. Considering the ineptitude of the CAS it is quite possible that he simply endured more abuse along the way, making him a truly lost soul.

Anonymous said...

I believe the letter writer is Elva Botinea's son that was beaten by Kidman.

To Fred: If I have your identity correct you need help. How could you (of all people) see Jeffrey's suffering and not report it? Why would you want to visit your dysfunctional mother who was still living with your abuser Kidman? WHY? My only reasoning for this is "the nut doesnt fall from the tree". Correct me if I am wrong. You did not float around in the foster care system --I understod you and your sister were both adopted.The Abused visiting the abuser doesnt make any sense to me.

As for Amanda: This is a public outcry--the people wanted this memorial set up. Amanda is a bright, young energetic woman who took it upon herself to do what the public wanted. For three years nothing was done--his family appeared to hope Jeffrey would go away and be invisible like he was in life. Amanda and her many supporters will not let this happen!!!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps you do not find Jeffrey's death disturbing but non-dysfunctional people do. Those same people have voiced their disgust all day on this blog.

Too bad if you dont like what Amanda is doing....Jeffrey never "belonged" to your family--his guardian was the CCAS. When they failed the public stepped up to the plate. CCAS and the rest of your "clan" have no say in what the public wants to do. We can mourn his loss the way we see fit.

I do not think for one minute the "clan" should have any say in this public memorial--the same "clan" who stood by and watched poor Jeffrey die a slow and agonizing death!!

I hope you have trouble sleeping at night with Jeffrey on your mind. This isnt likely to happen though--most sociopaths do not have a conscience.

Anonymous said...

If the paternal family cared so much why didnt they set up their own memorial?

I find a lot of their stories difficult to believe also.

Sure they were in court...according to the news. That doesnt necessarily indicate concern.

Where there is a will there is a way...if one was concerned about those children why could they not have phoned CCAS anonymously?????? CCAS has acted in other foster care situations arresting the foster parents. why would CCAS have to know Richard and/or Yvonne were calling?

When it comes to manipulating the system for their welfare cheque they excel but when it comes to manipulating that same system to save Jeffrey they turn their head.

Despicable---Richard and Yvonne and company: look into sterilization. You are unfit to say the least.

Anonymous said...

I think the person who said "With respect to those in the family who did not see him, and who were not aware of what was happening to him no I do not blame them." had it right.

The person who is intent on implicating every relative of Jeffrey's family is taking this beyond the rational.

If CAS accomodated the paternal grandmother's wishes, he would be alive. Are your attempts to make her complicit in this crime fair?

Why would she anonymously phone CAS to allege abuse when she new nothing of that situation and merely wanted to see Jeffrey? An external party that did allege abuse of a child in Elva's care got nowhere with CCAS, nor did this complaint result in the agency learning anything of the abuse Jeffrey endured.

To use the fact that the paternal relatives did not set up a memorial to insinuate they did not care is pretty low. Then, you choose to dismiss their presence in court as uncaring before closing with personal insults that have little to do with this matter.

I'm not sure what hatred is driving you but if this is how you treat people who played no role in Jeffrey's death it hardly seems fair to objective readers.

Anonymous said...

The man's name is Frank, not Fred.

Secondly, remember that, Frank, like so many others, thought the CCAS was involved already. Little did he know what that meant. Also, I have read recently that a complaint WAS made to the CCAS in 2000 by a person who was "on-line with an adult from the household" and the CCAS investigation turned up nothing wrong. So, had Frank chosen to make a complaint or someone else for that matter, it might have turned out that nothing was done, again. I mean, you also have to remember that Frank felt the CCAS workers know he and his sister were being beaten and caged and did nothing to help them - it wouldn't give a person much confidence in the system.

Also, not that I want to defend anyone's complacency because I would storm a house with my bare hands if I knew it would help an innocent child, the foster mother said in her interview that when she first saw the sister, she thought she was chubby. It wasn't until the girl was undressed that the foster mother realized she had a distended belly and skinny limbs. So, who knows, maybe it wasn't so easy to tell when they were clothed?

But I still wonder about the teachers of the sisters? Couldn't they tell something was up? IF the paramedics could smell urine from the entrance of the home, why couldn't the teachers or any of the neighbours who visited notice the smell on the kids?

Anonymous said...

Sorry, I AM WRONG. It is Fred after all, not Frank.

Anonymous said...

Catholic Children's Aid Society of Toronto statement
TORONTO, April 7 /CNW/ - With the verdict rendered in the criminal
proceedings arising from Jeffrey Baldwin's death, the Catholic Children's Aid
Society of Toronto ("CCAS") is now able to respond with respect to the case.

JEFFREY'S DEATH
The Catholic Children's Aid Society deeply regrets Jeffrey's tragic
death. Knowing that we could have done more to prevent Jeffrey's death has
been heartbreaking for everyone involved. Mary Mc Conville did not look to heart broken to me, she was angry. how dare the reporter asked her questions.
The CCAS wishes to assure the public both that we have made substantial
changes to our operating practices to prevent a tragedy like this from
happening again and that we will co-operate fully with the Coroner in the
Inquest into Jeffrey's death. ITS A BIT LATE, and MAKES US ALL WARM A FUZZY TO KNOW YOU WILL CORPORATE AFTER CHILDREN HAVE BEEN KILLED, WHAT ABOUT THE OTHERS,IN YOUR GROUP HOMES IN FOSTER HOMES.
ALSO WE UNDERSTAND WHY YOU WANT SOCIAL WORKERS TO TAKE FORENSICS AND WORK ALONG WITH THE CORNER, TO HIDE THE DIRTY DEEDS,

BACKGROUND
After the apprehension of the surviving siblings and cousins, and as a
result of the background check, the CCAS found old records that contained the
criminal convictions of Jeffrey's grandparents, Elva Bottineau and Norman
Kidman in the 1970's. We then realized that we had not checked records on
these grandparents in the 1990's.WHY NOT WE ADOPTED IT WAS A KINSHIP PLACEMENT WE HAD BACK GROUND CHECKS AND HOME STUDIES IN 1996. The grandparents, who were not receiving the
services of the CCAS during this period, were reporting concerns to the CCAS
about the treatment of their grandchildren by their parents. On more than one
occasion they participated in case conferences to discuss their concerns. In
the absence of record checks to detect the history of these grandparents and
their advocacy for the welfare of their grandchildren, the grandparents came
to be viewed by CCAS staff as allies in the protection of their grandchildren.THIS SPEAKS VOLUMES ABOUT YOUR ABILITY TO KEEP CHILDREN SAFE, THIS WOMEN IS BORDERLINE, HOW COULD YOU HAVE MISSED IT, YET YOU TAKE CHILDREN FROM GOOD FAMILIES FOR NOTHING , AND LIE IN COURTS.IF YOUR SO CALLED EXPERTS COULD NOT TELL THIS PLACEMENT WAS A RISK, YOU CANNOT TELL WHICH ONES NOT AS WELL.YOU HAVE DONE MUCH MORE THEN FAILED JEFFERY. YOUR ABUSE EXCUSE DOES NOT WASH.
The grandparents brought forward private applications to family court, seeking
custody of Jeffrey and his older siblings, with the backing of Jeffrey's
parents and the approval of the Catholic Children's Aid Society. Later,
through Child Welfare Court, a younger sibling was placed with the
grandparents with the approval of the CCAS.
We would most certainly have acted differently had the background of the
grandparents surfaced and in particular, the information about their criminal
convictions.YOU LET THEM TAKE CARE OF OTHER PEOPLES CHILDREN HAVE YOU INVESTIGATED TO SEE IF ANY OF THEM HAVE BEEN SEXUALLY ABUSED?
Further, in the summer of 2000, an investigation was initiated during a
strike and completed shortly thereafter.SORRY YOUR CHILD DIED IN CARE MS, REID WE WERE AT STARBUCKS,HOW MANY MILLIONS DO YOU NEED TO KEEP CHILDREN SAFE. The investigation occurred in
response to an allegation made by an on-line acquaintance of an adult in the
Bottineau/Kidman home and, although a record check was done, it was not
extensive enough to detect the historical record. A visit was made to the
home. Jeffrey and the other children were seen by a CCAS Supervisor. The
effects of maltreatment were not evident at this time, which was more than two
years prior to his death. This was the last contact the Society had with the
family until Jeffrey's death.Gillian Findlay: FOR HOW LONG OF A PERIOD OF TIME WOULD THIS HAVE BEEN APPARENT?Dr. Zlotkin: It's actually very difficult to be exact as to when the insult to Jeffery began in terms of the development of his malnutrition.But certainly we're talking about years not days and not months and I'm talking about years.
EXPLAIN THIS. IT TOOK YEARS. WHAT DOES THIS SAY ABOUT YOUR WORKERS. YOUR NOT ACCOUNTABLE AND NOT COMPETENT.YET YOU EXPECT THE PUBLIC TO FORGIVE, NO THERE NEEDS TO BE A ROYAL COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO ALL CHILD PROTECTION AGENCY, THE ONLY PEOPLE BENEFITING ARE THE LAWYERS. FOSTER PARENTS GROUP HOME OWNERS SOCIAL WORKERS PSYCHOLOGIST, AND ALL THE SPINS OFF THAT SPOOKY UNSCIENTIFIC NON EVIDENCED BASED PRACTICE, REMEMBER SATANIC RITUAL ABUSE,WHO PLANTED THAT STUFF, THE CHILDREN IN CARE SUFFER, ASK THE CROWN WARDS.

CCAS RESPONSE

In 2003, we moved quickly to address inadequacies in our practices that
were revealed in the wake of the tragedy, particularly the need for mandatory
background checks and comprehensive home studies of potential family
caregivers.AND WE ALL KNOW WHAT THIS WILL DO IS HARM MORE CHILDREN AND MAKE LAWYERS MORE MONEY.
BECAUSE KINSHIP IS REALLY THE SAFEST PLACE FOR A CHILD TO BE PLACED, ALL STUDIES HAVE SHOWN THAT, THIS FAMILY WAS BY NO MEANS ANY WHERE NEAR THE NORM.
BUT YES THE PUBLIC WILL HATE IT ALL THE MORE, BECAUSE OF CCAS FAILURE, HEY YOU CAN MAKE MORE CHILDREN CROWN WARDS AND FOSTER CARE PANIC WILL HAPPEN ALL OVER AGAIN. APPREHEND GREAT NUMBERS OF CHILDREN FOR WHAT, MESSY HOMES. AND MANDATED REPORTERS USING CHILD PROTECTION TO GET OUT OF MEDICAL LIABILITY IS WELL DOCUMENTED NOW AS WELL.

We asked Susan Abell, an expert in the field of child welfare and the
review of child deaths, to conduct an external review. The Executive Director
of the Society consulted with the Office of the Chief Coroner and the Ministry
of Children and Youth Services about the scope of the review before
proceeding.

The recommendations of the external review supported the operational
changes made by CCAS in 2003. Through these changes, we have increased our
protection capacity and have done our very best to reduce the risk that such a
situation could happen again in the future. The changes to our practices
include:

- mandatory record checking and assessment of all persons including
family members who come forward as potential caregivers as an
alternative to placing children in foster care
BUT THIS WILL TAKE TIME AND CHILDREN WILL BE IN CARE, AND MOVED ABOUT TILL ITS DONE, ARE ALL YOUR FOSTER HOME JUST AS SAFE, WE ALREADY KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT ONE, PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW ONE FOSTER FAMILY IS FIRED BY ONE AGENCY, YET HIRED BY THE CCAS PERHAPS YOU WANT TO LOOK INTO THAT, BEFORE SOMEONE TELLS THE PRESS.
APPREHENSIONS AND MOVING CHILDREN PUTS THEM AT RISK, IT BREAKS BONDS, AND WELL YOU KNOW WHAT IT DOES, BUT DON'T CARE, YOUR FAILURE TO SEE THIS FAMILY FOR WHAT THEY WERE. WILL CAUSE SO MANY MORE CHILDREN AND FAMILIES HARM, HOW SWEET. - re-training for existing staff and mandatory training for new staff in
conducting comprehensive record checks, and reviewing family histories
SO IF GRANDPA BACK IN 1969 HAD A DUI IS HE NOT ABLE TO TAKE CARE OF A CHILD? PEOPLE ARE NOT PERFECT NOT EVEN ARE MANY OF CANADA POLITICIANS A FEW PREMIERS HAVE SEVERIAL DUIs or possession of on cig of pot at 18 is that Uncle going to be unable to adopt the child? the JEFFERY'S GRANDPARENTS MURDERED A CHILD, SEXUALLY ABUSED A CHILD, YOUR AGENCY REMOVED TWO. WHAT DON'T WE KNOW?.
- improvements to our record keeping system to simplify record retrieval
by eliminating multiple systems, creating a master database, and
making historic records accessible from various CCAS branch offices
on-line ITS 2006 WHY WAS THIS NOT DONE YEARS AGO AND PLEASE YOU HAVE HAD ENOUGH MONEY.

Along with these improvements, the external review identified the need
for systemic change and the establishment of provincial standards and
protocols regarding background checks and the assessment of kin homes -
where family members come forward as potential caregivers. The CCAS provided
the Coroner's Office and the Ministry with the recommendations of the external
reviewer and advocated for government regulations to standardize record
checking and home study practices.

PROVINCIAL STANDARDS AND PRACTICES
Children's Aid Societies have a responsibility to protect children from
neglectTHE PUBLIC IS NOT AWARE OF YOUR NEGLECT CRAP, MANY DO NOT GET THE MESSY HOUSE THING, AND ADHD, AND MISSED DENTAL APPT. AND SO FORTH, STOP WASTING MONEY ON THE SO CALLED NEGLECT AND GO AFTER REAL CASES OF ABUSE, LESS CHILDREN WILL BE HARMED YOU WILL HAVE MORE TIME.MAYBE LESS MONEY BUT ITS ARE MONEY. and from physical, sexual and emotional abuse. Although the purpose of
the Child and Family Services Act has always been to protect children, the
legislative framework and the focus of child welfare intervention in the
1990's and earlier was on family preservation, including consideration of
extended family members (kin) as potential caregivers.AND IT SHOULD STILL BE YOU HAVE TAKEN IT TO FAR, THE US IS NOW TAKING IT BACK, TO MANY CHILDREN HAVE BEEN KILLED IN CARE AND IN ADOPTED PLACEMENTS. YOU NEED REAL SERVICES, TO OFFER FAMILIES. WHY CAN WE NOT LEARN FROM THE LESSON LEARNT IN THE US.
During that time, and to this day, Ontario's Children's Aid Societies
follow standardized protocols and practices for considering all applicants for
fostering and adoption of children, including extended family members of
children admitted into the care of a Children's Aid Society. However, there
were no such provincial standards for assessing extended family as caregivers
for children in need of protection and who were not in the care of a
Children's Aid Society.
Major reforms to child welfare practices were entrenched in legislation
in 2000, but the gap in the regulations and standards to assess extended
family of out of care children were not addressed.YOU WRITE WHAT YOU WANT AND HAVE ALWAYS GOTTEN IT DON'T BULL US WE CAN READ.
In June 2005, proposed amendments to the Child and Family Services Act
set the stage for new government regulations announced this year that have
standardized the practice of all Children's Aid Societies with respect to
background checks and comprehensive home studies of extended family members
(kin).

CONCLUSION
The CCAS deeply regrets Jeffrey's terrible death and the harm done to his
surviving siblings. For an agency committed to the ongoing protection of
thousands of children and families in our community annually, this has been a
heart wrenching experience. The CCAS has learned from this tragedy and has
significantly improved its protection capacity. We have shared the lessons
learned so that the child welfare system can benefit as a whole.
The safety and well being of children must always be the first
consideration in protective services. We trust that the significant
improvements we have made to our operating practices and our co-operation with
the Coroner will assure the community that we are doing our best to minimize
the risk of a similar tragedy in the future.

Sincerely,
Mary A. McConville
Executive Director


Backgrounder
------------

Review of the Catholic Children's Aid Society - Jeffrey Baldwin Case
Author: Susan C. Abell, MSW
Management Resources

Key Recommendations:
--------------------

Catholic Children's Aid Society of Toronto:
-------------------------------------------

1. Family history to be emphasized in performing a comprehensive risk
assessment.

2. Catholic Children's Aid Society continue to develop the information
system with the focus on integration and access to current and past
client information.

3. Monitor the use of the policy implemented in 2004 to assess extended
family placements.

4. Training to emphasize the importance of family history and assessment
of caregivers. Mandatory training practice to continue with focus on
understanding child neglect.

5. When there are grounds to bring a child before the court as being in
need of protection, this intervention to be considered before plans
are completed for transfer of custody. Transfer of custody, based on
assessment of the alternate caregivers, to be part of the case plan,
i.e. court order. This is particularly applicable in cases of ongoing
child neglect.

((*)Note from CCAS to journalists: If a worker is faced with a
decision to remove children from their parents and has the option to
either allow the children to live with extended family or place the
children in foster care, according to this recommendation, if the CAS
chooses the option of extended family, the matter should still be
brought before child welfare court rather than simply withdrawing
once custody is transferred.)THIS IS BECAUSE OF YOUR FAILURE, LAWYERS WILL LOVE IT. BUT THE CHILDS BEST INTEREST. CHILD PROTECTION IS NOT ABOUT CHILDREN MARY READ WHAT'S WRONG WITH CHILDREN RIGHTS.

6. Legal training for new workers to include preparing family history
for the court, particularly in cases of child neglect.

7. Issues, recommendations and changes the agency has made to be
communicated to the wider field of child welfare as part of the
"lessons learned".

Ontario Child Protection Training Program:
------------------------------------------

1. To ensure that future training and curricula models adhere to
standards of content that place sufficient emphasis on family
history, assessments of alternate caregivers and child neglect. This
includes the need to reassess the training for new and authorized
workers with regard to the content on child neglect.

Ontario Association of Children's Aid Societies:
------------------------------------------------

1. Ontario Association of Children's Aid Societies to receive the
recommendations from the review and use it for presentation and
discussion with various parties, in particular the member agencies
and the Ministry.

Ministry of Children and Youth Services:
----------------------------------------

1. The Ministry to deliver on promise of the comprehensive information
system for Children's Aid Societies.

2. Fast Track to be reviewed with regard to the capacity to provide
relevant past history.

3. Retention of records, confidentiality and information sharing need to
be examined and direction given in relation to Part 8 of legislation.

4. The Ministry to develop policies supporting protection of children in
kinship care arrangements.

5. The Ministry to initiate discussions regarding the integration of
custody applications with past records of child protection findings.

6. The review of child protection standards and their use needs to be
completed to ensure that the focus and balance are in place to
provide appropriate interventions for children and their families.

Office of the Chief Coroner:
----------------------------

1. The Coroner's Office to consider developing a capacity for
consultation with the Pediatric Death Review Committee on those child
deaths which are not covered under the present protocol.

2. Review the protocol for its effectiveness with emphasis on the
purpose and use for internal reviews.

3. The Coroner to give consideration to means to support Children's Aid
Societies, workers and related professionals to review and examine
their practices, in an environment that encourages being open,
without the threat of prosecution.




For further information: Anne Rappé, Manager, Communications at
(416) 395-1500 or mailto:pr@ccas.toronto.on.ca

Anonymous said...

Read the other blogs-it would appear many agree with me.

For those members of the paternal family who knew nothing: That message is not for you.

I have my doubts whether this applies to the entire family though.

Perhaps it is unchristian-like to think this way but I am so damn mad after watching the 5th estate--madder than before!

I hope Elva and Norman end up in an institute full of homosexual rapists so they can get a mere taste of what jeffreys sister went through when her grandfather raped her with a spoon.

Anonymous said...

The teachers did not go to the house! The oldest sister did not smell of urine. I dont know whether the younger sister smelled like urine when she attended school.

As for Noseworthy family it is beyond me how they didnt know...mr. was at the house 3 times a week, Mrs. saw J. and J being bathed in the washtubs in the basement --she wasnt expected. When she reported it to the police she said it was one year before he died but in court she "couldnt remember" whether it was one or two years. She also wrote glowing letters to CCAS in an effort for Elva to get her other 3 grandchildren back between the time Jeffrey died and the time of her arrest.

I think she is naive not mean.

Anonymous said...

CHILD PROTECTION SYSTEM

Ms. Andrea Horwath (Hamilton East): I'm pleased to present a petition from over 3,000 Ontarians concerned about the lack of independent oversight within the province's child protection system. The petition reads as follows:

"Whereas the Child and Family Services Act of 1999 has been misused to apprehend large numbers of Canadian children; it is financially onerous to the people of Ontario;

"Whereas the current legislation gives CPS workers more power than any policeman, physician or judge, the rights of Canadian children are routinely trampled in the name of `child protection';

"Whereas the funding of this agency is piecework based, it is financially rewarded for each file opened and each child apprehended;

"We, the unsigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to open up the process to public scrutiny to ensure a level playing field, and ensure a proper judicial review with proper representations."

I'm sending it to the table by way of Charlotte.

April 13, 2006 Hansard Ontario Legislative Assembly

http://www.ontla.
on.ca/hansard/house_
debates/38_parl/
Session2/L060.htm

Anonymous said...

In Canada cousins are not allowed to marry. Having children with a cousin is not recommended either.

Elva's 2nd and 3rd children were fathered by a cousin.

Fred is a textbook example of why these laws are in place.

Anonymous said...

Way to go Andrea Horwath - a few years ago tabling a petition like this in the Legislature would have been unthinkable and it still takes a lot of courage.

May I also take this opportunity to ask new readers on the site to invite family, friends, neighbours etc. here to raise awareness of issues surrounding CAS. The more people understand the system does not remotely resemble what they've been led to believe (dedicated child welfare guardians?) the quicker it will change.

Jeffrey's Law said...

I posted this letter because I am SICK of hate mail! I now know from watching the Fifth Estate that he is indeed the first (and only?) son elva had. He SAW Jeffrey, he, more than anyone else KNEW exactly what was going on, what was happening to Jeffrey and his sister! I have NO IDEA why he is on side with the woman who birthed him, although I can understand him wanting to meet his biological parents, does he not fault her for abusing him and his sister??

I WILL NOT be the dumping groung for the maternal family's guilt and WILL post any letter I see fit for the rest of you to read.

Jeffrey's Law said...

Also, he is not part of the paternal family. I have been and enjoy being in contact with Elayne but will not have contact with any of the maternal family.

Jeffrey's Law said...

His name is Fred (I just watched 'Failing Jeffrey') and I believe it was he who wrote that letter because I don't know of anyone else who would or why.

Anonymous said...

his letter comes from within The Children's Aid



To the Minister of Social Services .

Some of us want to see change. We don't like doing the dirty work of corrupt offices and politicians.

We are a group of insiders, forced to work under duress, not able to say and do the things that are fair and protect children who are truly at risk.

Though we pose as professionals who are supposed to help families and protect children, we are now criminals. Not because we want to, but because for too long, apathy has caused workers to not question the ethics of the very people who have the power of life and death over children's and family lives. We who work quietly within to try to make honesty out of our fellow workers, supervisors and politicians. All but the very dysfunctional families can be saved and helped.

Some of us became alarmed when we read the court papers in the case of a wrongfully accused priest many years ago. For years, he was the pet project of a vengeful, out of control worker. The lawsuit he won against the Durham Children's Aid Society was a tremendous moral victory, but why was the worker, who was found in court to have maliciously lied and falsified critical documents, not ever arrested? Why did she simply relocate to another Children's Aid region. We demand that the premier and his ministers immediately make public, the judge's words of condemnation to the worker, and then please explain why she was never arrested. Any other citizen would have been.

There are those of us in the field that are sick at heart to be remotely involved with criminal liars. It makes all workers look bad. But through the dedication of groups of people who know the truth, both inside the Children's Aid Society, and advocacy group members, this problem has remained in the public consciousness. In some cases, it has made no difference.

Two Leamington children, drowned by their insane father, would be alive today. But they are not. The Children's Aid Society had many reports and concerns raised by citizens, for almost a year. The police were even called out on an assault charge, but the children were ignored -- ignored to death. Our fellow agency told the press that the CAS had done all the right things, but that is untrue.

Some of us have left this branch of social work, to try and fix things by helping grassroots organizations help expose the unbelievable evil. There are others of us who remain behind the scenes, but our hands are tied. There have been many workers who have spoken out, or tried to do the right thing in the most corrupt of settings. Being held responsible for criminal and negligent actions, is the only way to stop children from dying, and families being unnecessarily torn apart.

This is the first of a planned schedule of dropping information, and publicity that would put some of our co-workers in jail and ensure that they never work with children and families again.

The public perception is that all CAS workers lie in court and falsify sworn testimony. At our professional peril, we have gotten the right things done in most cases we have dealt with, but children are still dying and innocent families are forced into years of harassment by an agency that has no policing and answers to no one.

If this is a revolution -- then let it begin now. Information of how children die in Canada, and how parents have become crazy from trying to please an agency that is never ever going to be pleased. We are given an agenda in social work, and the time is coming when that multifaceted and horrible agenda will be made public.

We recommend that court records be examined. They will find vendettas, powered by the personal anger they suffer from, to ensure a victory for the agency, you will find perjury on the stand, falsified documents, secret filing systems and much worse. Children in this country are merely a commodity, a make work and money game, where the best interests of children are rarely observed.

Chief Julian Fantino is a hero to honest people everywhere. He could have stuck his head in the sand and continued to allow corruption within the police force. He demanded, and got a police force that was held accountable. We are doing no less here.

The lies and the pain have stop. Therefore, as time goes on, more and more critical and embarrassing stories will be leaked to people we trust. And we won't stop until the Premier appoints an independent review committee to look at records about how we are forced to operate under a shroud of lies and CAS must win at any cost, even the cost of truth and lives.

It is time to clean house. Crimes of murder by CAS will come to light. Then and only then, will we be able to do our jobs. The found records are only the beginning, and we continue to seek out more honest Children's Aid workers, filter the information to the public. This is just the beginning.

Lisa Burns said...

I would like to set the record straight. Richards family (The Paternal side) is not guilty of anything more then loving Richard. They couldn't get any visitation of the children and were only permitted to see the kids a few times. Richard and Yvonne were treated the same way. I was witness to a lot of cancelled visits. But they are not off the hook that easily (Richard and Yvonne), they seen Jeffrey and his sister within weeks of Jeffrey dying. Yvonne knew what life was like for the kids as she was the favorite one, adored by the child molester, and her sister Yvette favored by Eve, Tammy was the unloved child in the house she knew what these children were going through and lived with it. Her own children got to watch. I think that Richard, Yvonne and her siblings should all be sterilized. End this cycle of abuse, murder and retardedness. They looked nieve on the show, but you can catch a glimse of Yvonne turning in to her mother when she said "B-ll S--t". And after all that she would only ask her mom if her kids were taken as a scam, not what about my sister? What about the neglect? Why did you kill my son and try to kill my daughter? No the only question out of her mouth is about money! She is every bit like her mother.

Anonymous said...

Here's a thought. Maybe Fred wants people to butt out so that he can get some peace. Having lived through what he did and then to be hunted down by the media to relive it, not to mention reliving it every time he sees it on the news or in the newspaper, may not be easy. So please don't be so hard on the man. Can you imagine talking on public TV about being locked in a dog cage? I think he was quite brave to talk in the first place. I am sure many of us cannot possibly imagine what it is like to be in his shoes, even for a second.

Anonymous said...

Fred did not have to talk to the media ,yes he was abused ,but then says he seen frail Jeffrey and did nothing just like Yvonne and Tammy and Yvette they were abused too and took part in the beating too of Jeffrey and J--- and the torture and DID NOTHING,WHY FRED?

Anonymous said...

Any of you freaks want to tell us WHY?Yvette,Yvonne,Tammy,James,Michael,Fred,Richard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!WHY DID YOU DO NOTHING?WHY AREN'T YOU TAKING RESPONSIBLITY?WHY?

Anonymous said...

TO LISA:

I AGREE WITH YOU 110%!!!!!!!!!!!

I THINK THE BUNCH OF WELFARE SCAM ARTISTS WERE PAID BY CBC FOR SPEAKING!!!!! THey totally disgust me.

I think it is time welfare started checking up on them also--no doubt they are scamming the taxpayers of Ontario.

This is deplorable beyond words.....do they actually believe anyone in their right mind believed their "bullshit"?

Many many reasons for sterilization. All three of them!

Amy said...

Any adult who is witness to the deplorable horrors which Jeffrey and his sister were forced to endure, and decide to do nothing about it, should also be held accountable for his death. There were 6 adults living in that home, (not to mention his parents, and any other adults who might have come & gone throughout the house & seen what was happening) How could someone sit in a room next door to an obviously dying child & do nothing more than play video games? Sure, James Mills testified in court after Jeffrey died, but why did he do nothing to save his life when he had the chance? Any intelligent human being would recognize that what was happening to these poor children was wrong! It is very important that all of society stand up & lend their voices for the most vulnerable members of our society, who are unable to speak for, and protect themselves. Never, never should we as a society simply "butt out" when it comes to protecting the children within our society.

fred said...

This is fred .. yes im the son of that freack show of a mother and stepfather ... Smoe people in here think u know it all .... well to those how put me down and call me just as bad as them well u acan all go to hell.. . needless to say u people only here what u want..... u all need to grow a brain and think what u are doing to me and my sister.... i have only seen jeffery 3 times and the first time was when he looked skinny.. the 2 other times he looked fine so .... u can put the blame on me all u want ... go a haed i've got big sholders ....u people think u have it all figured out ... well i tell u live a day in my shoes and tell me ... to the people that say im on welfair well ..im not i have a full time job so u can kiss my ass.... i may not be the smartest guy in the world but dont think for one minut that i dont feel bad for that little boy ..because i do .... i want to see thouse people rot in hell.... and ccas well thats another story . they are going to pay and i mean pay .... in every way possible...i have to go to court on the 17th so any of the assholes that have some to say well better be there !!!!!!!!! because i'll tell u all face to face ....i want to be left alone i dont want to be bothered with this shit that u are writing about me and accusing of ...futher more to the people who have under standing on my be half thank you all.... my life is hard enought dealing day to day i dont need this any more than judy does .... im very happy to say that im thankful for the plauqe that they are putting up for jeffery... wish i could be there..... i do miss him and hope the rest of the kis get a better life than i did in the care of ccas... there are people out there thinking that this life is so easy for them well not for me.......u can attack me all u like amanda reed ...i cAN take it ....and for those who still dissagree well sorry about your luck....one letter in here said what come around goes aroud well pal BRING IT ON cause it hasn't killed me yet and if it does well ill be out of this fucked up world.......and u all can deal with it case im tired of it ..... u all may be say this guy should seak help ... well i have ,but it didn't help not one bit...so say what u like about me im not responasable for jeffery's death and i could not have stoped it because like i said i only seen him 3 times......so if u people would just be a little more caering towards me and my family i would appracate it alot ... and yes i have kids.... and im nothing like my parents....u people out there dont get facts straight and just assaume things... please have the truth about things before yipping off at the lips, know if your facts are true or not. well thanks for taking the time to read this im off for now...please people im just trying to move on with my life. fred crotta

Anonymous said...

Fred: I think that you were very brave to do the interview. I applaud your courage. You now need to put this behind you.

Anonymous said...

FRED: Until yur hate mail most would have supported you.

How do you explain the hate mail? How do you explain doing nothing when you saw Jeffrey? How do you explain supporting this dysfunctional family?

No doubt your life was rough...I felt very sad for you until the hate mail.

Anonymous said...

I agree entirely with the last poster. Fred's behaviour with hate mail against Amanda was completely contradictory to his current plea for sympathy for himself. Given his contradictions in behaviour he cannot be believed. A person who has any heart, common sense and dignity would not have sent the hate mail to Amanda, and would not have spurned away all the help people who are strangers to him would have otherwise undoubtedly be willing to give him and are giving generally in regard to the issue of child protection and improving it for the future. Fred obviously does not get that and in my view, his last message only indicates that he is as manipulative as his mother and he wants to have his cake and eat it too. We are not going to sympathize with someone who has no sympathy for others and only wants it his way.

Anonymous said...

Also,FRED, your spelling and means of expression leave a lot to be desired.

Why don't you clean up your act and do something to help yourself and help others, which is don't say anything unless you have something nice to say - you obviously have nothing of use to contribute to society, unfortunately, despite your position which you could have used, like Dave Witzel, to advocate for victims of child abuse.

I disagree with another poster, this is not something that Fred needs to "put behind him", nor do I think he admittedly has. But his way of dealing with it is classic, tell everybody who is good hearted to go to hell and keep everything "private". Fred has been indoctrinated well with Bottineau's cult-like methods.

Anonymous said...

Hate mail? Would anyone care to explain how Mr. Cotta's letter(posted by Amanda) qualifies as hate mail?

Jeffrey's Law said...

Would you rather I call it 'attack' mail? Do you (last poster) agree with him, that we shoul all just butt out and discuss this with 'the family'? They didn't care about Jeffrey then, why do they care about him now?

Saying this, I also am very, very sorry for him and what he had to endure both as a chid and now as an adult, but like I mentioned before, I'm sick of being a dumping ground or target for their guilt. I was shocked and outraged when I got this letter, but you are entitled to your opinion...

Anonymous said...

Amanda, think about it. Yvonne is a sad figure. She is angry. Mom accused her of being a child abuser to take all her children. Who was she going to complain to? Who was going to believe her? Look at the BS Elva and CCAS put her through. Jeffrey might be alive today, if this had not happened. Yvonne's plight bothers me. She and Richard have lost their children forever. Imagine their pain. They are not teary-eyed emotional. They are just plain angry as we all should be. Jeffrey was their child after all. Elva and Norman ruled that home with fear and intimidation. No one dared question her actions, not even CCAS. Her tongue and iron fist kept everyone in line. Who gave her that power?

I know that this is hard for you to process.

Fred has his own dignity. He was not afraid to speak up and be personally interviewed. You can see that he has suffered. Cut him some slack and develop a relationship with him.

I am a neutral third party who is watching closely and assessing the pain and confusion everyone involved feels.

Anonymous said...

I think your right on above post keep up the positive work that will make the change not all the bashing of everyone.

Anonymous said...

I do not consider the government making a law to make the CAS unaccountable, while working with a baby broker to be responsible or positive for that matter.

Children should not be taken from their parents to provide products to infertile strangers.

Anonymous said...

And children SHOULD NOT BE BOUGHT AND SOLD PERIOD.

Anonymous said...

The government is working with an organization that has workshops called "How To Find a Child".

Now is this child protection - or a witch hunt?

The same group had an article in a paper a few years ago and said "adoption is the price of a car it could be a luxury sedan or a compact model".

Surely if we have any hope for humanity I am not the only person that is deeply offended and enraged beyond words that we are comparing children, and their price to vehicles?

Anonymous said...

The CAS are sharpening their teeth like a pack of wolves to take children for anyone who "wants" them to provide a "product" to a very sick industry.

Jeffrey's Law said...

RE: Amanda, think about it. Yvonne is a sad figure. She is angry. Mom accused her of being a child abuser to take all her children. Who was she going to complain to? Who was going to believe her? Look at the BS Elva and CCAS put her through. Jeffrey might be alive today, if this had not happened. Yvonne's plight bothers me. She and Richard have lost their children forever. Imagine their pain. They are not teary-eyed emotional. They are just plain angry as we all should be. Jeffrey was their child after all. Elva and Norman ruled that home with fear and intimidation. No one dared question her actions, not even CCAS. Her tongue and iron fist kept everyone in line. Who gave her that power?

This is not hard for me to process and in fact when I watched the fifth estate, I agreed with both yvonne and richard when they said who would have believed them. Who would have?? Not the CCAS.

Again, I am sorry for Fred and all he has had to go through but these attacks on ME, a concerned citizen who is standing up for what is right and trying to have something changed, are absolutely ridiculous! They are focusing their rage on the WRONG person and I am sick of these e-mails! This is the only one out of many, many threatening, mean e-mails that I have recieved from 'the family', though Fred is the only one who actually told me who he was, and for that I give him credt.

Again, I refuse to be emotionally dumped on. Please don't make excuses for these people, I am empathetic to what has happened to them, but I don't believe everything they say and what they ignored in Jeffrey far out wieghs any of their own suffering...

Anonymous said...

Unlike several of the comments directed Mr. Cotta, his can hardly be considered hate mail. Nor are they an attack.

Mr. Cotta asks valid questions for which you have valid answers. The problem is that you and others cannot seem to resist the opportunity to slam anyone associated with Jeffrey Balwin - fairly or unfairly. Because you do not appear to consider such outlandish posts to be hate mail or attack mail, it creates the impression that you and others are primarily motivated by vengence.

As the one poster said, it's the "positive work that will make the change not all the bashing of everyone. Have you ever considered that some of Jeffrey's relatives might be sick of being a dumping ground or target for the attacks on this site?

Anonymous said...

Amanda:

This is the time to start to heal oneself.

Self-healing will come by forgiving and by focusing on the broader issue.

You have started a movement to reform the entire child protection system. Maintain your focus steady and avoid the petty arguments.

The Inquiry is still to come and that will take
considerable energy if the public is to see the entire picture and the solutions.

Anonymous said...

Do the viewers of 5th estate actually believe every word that came out of Yvonnes mouth????

If so she sure fooled you!! She is a manipulative canniving -----.

She is like her mother.....she defended her mother off camera denying her parents even killed her son.

Stop believing everything you read and hear.....there is such a thing as calling CAS anonymously. Their number could never be traced --they only work with cell phones.

Amanda has become a dumping ground for those who are riddled with guilt now that Jeffrey is dead and the public is in on it. Some would prefer this whole thing would just go away. They know who they are.

Amanda I support you 110%--I know your heart was always in the right place. As much as CCAS was responsible for placing Jeffrey with his murderers that did now entitle them to murder him while the "low life clan" stood by and watched.

Who in their right mind could get on national TV and pretend to have "questions" for her parents? Give me a break--she has been visiting the two jerks in jail for 3 years. That same so-called "mother" did not shed a tear for her son....many cry for their dead children 10 years later!!! Some never forget..eg. Meghans Walk...Her daughter died many years ago and yet she still mourns her loss but has made something constructive out of it.

One thing for sure...while some are busy holding CCAS wholly responsible for Jeffrey's death they are accomplishing nothing....you get more with honey than vinegar.

Anonymous said...

What valid questions did Mr. Crotta ask??????????

Anonymous said...

It is quite obvious that Fred Crotta was also abused after the CCAS removed him from that hell hole. I think he is haunted by Jeffrey. I also think that the CCAS DID NOTHING TO HELP HIM. Farming children into the hands of strangers and calling "adoption" a cure for child abuse is the greatest lie of all time.

I don't think this man is evil, I think he is a child abuse survivor and when he met Elva and found 4 kids that had been given to her by the CCAS of Toronto I think it only re-confirmed his worst fear - that somehow what happened to him to start with was his fault.

That alone is very, very sad.

Anonymous said...

It is not your fault if you are reading this.

Anonymous said...

I would like to see more of this "hate mail" your getting could you share it with us?

Anonymous said...

Mr. Cotta's original comments questioned the appropriateness of undertaking the plaque memorial without consulting members of his family. He asks why Amanda she is interfering with what he perceives to be a family matter and fighting for someone she didn't know.

These are a perfectly valid questions - particulary because there have been consistent attempts to unfairly paint several family members with the same brush of hatred used on those who lived in the house.

As stated, there are also valid answers to Mr Cotta's concerns. These should be expressed without the lynch mob mentality found in several posts. As one wise reader suggested, maintain the focus and avoid the petty arguements.

Anonymous said...

I also do not think that the message directed to Fred to just get over this is even remotely intelligent. This man needs some help, and it is very obvious that the CCAS did not help him what so ever after he was removed.

How is expecting a child to just "bury" their pain and fear by being adopted help?

Anonymous said...

And how was not telling Karen the foster mother absolutely nothing about these kids and leaving it for her to determine the Stephen King atmosphere of hell that they endured help?

Secrecy is not help, but the very set up of the entire child welfare system in Canada is based on secrets and lies.

It makes me wonder how his siblings are doing and to think of them being in a foster home where they are expected to just bury the past both saddens and enrages me.

These kids need to be loved, and they need to be helped to recover from their horror.

Anonymous said...

A few questions for the Pro CAS poster that said: Do the viewers of 5th estate actually believe every word that came out of Yvonnes mouth????

The program mentioned this was the first time Jeffrey's mother and father had publicly spoken about his death. What is the source of your information that Yvonne defended her mother off camera denying her parents even killed her son?

Where does you information come from that "she has been visiting the two jerks in jail for 3 years."

Are you assuming this women never shed a tear simply because she did not do so on camera?

Who is holding CCAS solely responsible for Jeffrey's death?

Do you not believe that CCAS was entirely responsible for creating the environment for this tragedy and demonstrated astounding negligence at every point it could (and should)have prevented it?

Anonymous said...

One thing for sure...while some are busy holding CCAS wholly responsible for Jeffrey's death they are accomplishing nothing....you get more with honey than vinegar.

reply......

I do not think that anyone here holds the CCAS solely responsible for this horrific murder. But they facilitated it. This is not about honey and vinegar this is about a little boy who was abused in a horror show. This is about an agency that has not been unaccountable for over 100 years, and this is about the public finally knowing the truth.

Anonymous said...

Placing the children in seperate foster homes is inhuman - but completely typical of CAS.

Anonymous said...

I think what happened to Fred was absolutely dreadful, re-read his email he was further abused after he was removed.

Child welfare is a cycle of child abuse.

I don't think this guy is evil, I think he is in enormous pain. I also do not think we should be slamming him for spelling mistakes etc.. the guy is human.

Anonymous said...

Placing the children in seperate foster homes is inhuman - but completely typical of CAS.

I think it is as well. These kids need to be helped and taught how to love each other. Sending them away from each other is not a solution. But destroying all ties to a family is indeed typical of the CAS, it is their very mantra.

Anonymous said...

To anyone reading this that thinks that adoption and foster care is a total and absolute solution read the articles by Vivian Song. It is a good beginning to the truth.

Anonymous said...

I think Fred was never treated with dignity of any kind, including the CCAS.

Anonymous said...

I agree, I think Fred has been through a lot. I saw it in his face. He struggled to give that interview. He ended up in a home not as loving and well off as his sister. His sister needs to understand.

The CCAS has destroyed their emotional and biological ties.

Fix them. Give him some kindness.

Anonymous said...

Anyone who sat through the trial would know the other side of Yvonne.

First and foremost she defended her parents outside of the courtroom while with Mills. This was prior to Mills testimony. In the beginning she hung around the courtroom--later she never attended.

Secondly testimony read into the court talks about her and her mother sitting in the quiet room in the hospital with the police and doctor present. It was documented that Yvonne mentioned that Jeffrey had a life insurance policy and she wondered if she could collect on it. She later went to a doctor to ask him to complete the forms which he refused as it was not an accidental death. Obviously you did not sit through much or any of the trial...letters and visits to the jail all came up in court.

Third...read Lisa's account of Yvonne. She knew her long before Jeffrey died. She describes her the same way as me.

Face it..she is an incompetent parent who keeps producing children only to have them confiscated by CCAS. Talk about baby brokers? She is feeding them!

Anonymous said...

Are you aware the 5th estate pays those who appear on their shows?

Tina said...

Good for you Fred for sticking up for yourself and attempting to explain yourself. There are posters here who will never understand your side, but that may be because they have no capacity to. I hope you can find a way to focus on your present family and find some peace. Don't let what you read here ruin your day. When people write anonymously, it is easy to attack. You are far braver than most here.

Anonymous said...

Who are you, TINA? Give a last name and particulars of your identity - why have you not done so?

Vladimir Orlt said...

Fred

I know you went through horrible things, and I want to believe you... but please, please tell us why you did nothing for Jeffrey... even when you saw him going through what you went through many years earlier?

Even among all the horror, your interview is one of the saddest moments of the Fifth Estate show...

Tina said...

Dear Anonymous at 10:54:54 - a bit ironic you wanting to know my identity beyond a first name - when you have provided nothing as to your identity. But if it makes you feel better, I am a total outsider and not at all connected to the "family". I just didn't think Fred deserved to be dumped on - I think he has been through more than enough tormoil in his life.

Fred has tried to explain why he supposedly did "nothing". He said he only ever saw Jeffrey 3 times - the first time he looked skinny and the next two times he looked fine (remember the foster mom thought Jeffrey's sister looked chubby when she had her clothes on). Add to that the fact he grew up not trusting the CCAS, an agency that did not immediately come to his rescue, and the fact he was shocked the CCAS gave these people more kids and thought they were monitoring the family, and you have a tricky situation to understand or intervene in. Remember, hindsight is 50/50. There are many people you can blame in this tragic situation, but I don't think Fred is one of them.

Lisa said...

To the ones who feel sorry for Richard and Yvonne, DON'T.
They didin't do shit to try and get the kids back. I my self gave them so many chances and offers to get help and get thier kids back. All they care about is material things that welfare can buy. Sure Rich works but as the money comes in shes spending it. They let their kids wear hand me downs and share happy meals while they walk around with the finest of things: Gold necklaces, cd's, video games, brand name clothing etc..... Yvonne knew what what going on in the house, she is playing stupid so she can get the newest baby in to her life. Doesn't anyone remember when the police were getting ready to drive her and her mother to Jefffey's already cold dead body the first thing she says is " I wonder if this is covered by the insurance, and how much money can I get." Not my son is dead, why? Stop any sorry feelings you have for her, she is a great manipulator like her mother. She is a pro. She has never fooled me, I've known her for years and never liked her. Richard was my friend, I always wanted the best for him. Now I'm completely done, he is as bad as she is now, they both should be in jail with her family. And yes she has been visiting her family in jail. When the charges first happened the three sisters and Richard called around and asked everyone for money so they could get the parents out on bail! The same parents that killed Jeffrey and took these children for money. They (the whole family and all involved with them)are ill and can't see it.

Anonymous said...

Thank you Lisa for confirming what the "pro Yvonne" poster denies.

I sat through much of this trial and what I heard both inside and outside the courtroom(from Yvonnes mouth!)shocked me. I kept asking myself "how can the mother of this litle 6 year old boy defend his killers"? It was very shocking.

The pro-Yvonne poster doesnt seem to want to understand that Yvonne is a conniving manipulative b----.

Lisa I believe what you post is true--you have nothing to gain by lying.

Yvonne on the other hand has plenty to gain--custody of her baby and future welfare cheques.

Anonymous said...

I find this bashing of Yvonne sick HER child is dead, not ours, how do we really know how she feels, how dare people make this kind of judgement, she was abuse I have no doubt as a child herself, and later on by her mother for money to keep her children, she looks so angry, and anger comes from Pain, all the shrinks that send people to anger managment dont get it.

How can we ever know what she really feels, her other children are gone, should she never be allowed to parent, the CCAS let her mother parent her and her sisters, and two other children and other peoples children and then her grandchildren after she murdered a child many years before. Yvonne and her siblings should have been removed when Kidman sexually abused , and Elva starved her own two children.
We can blame Yvonne, but what would have become of Jeffery, if he was treated like his younger brother, he would have been the same, the family dynamics,are one of poverty, un educated, simple, abusive,no real sence of even what the meaning of FAMILY is to most of us. we are blessed we were not born into such a mess.
Is Yvonne never going to be allowed to parent never allowed to love a child , because of her past mistakes, she killed no one, and really who could she tell, the CCAS, they would of hung up on her. I dont know her, and I wish to god she had the common sence to make a call , I bet she does as well, or ran out the door with Jeffery, and screamed help.
But I refise to hope bad things for her for the rest of her life, I have a feeling its always been rough.

Anonymous said...

I would like to see more of this "hate mail" your getting could you share it with us?

Anonymous said...

For whatever reason the poster refuses to believe Yvonne is capable of everything claimed.

I am not sure why.....I have my thoughts on this but will keep it to myself.

Anonymous said...

To poster April 18, 2006 3:13:57 AM :

you are obviously a family member or insider. What you say is preposterous in the extreme. If nobody is were allowed to sit in judgment, as you say should be the case, then by extension we should not judge those who have committed murder.

In fact Yvonne is complicit and responsible for Jeffrey's murder as much as the grandparents.

The only thing I can say after reading so much is garbage is that this world is crazy - Jeffrey's better to be out of it, he doesn't deserve this.

The only person worth giving sympathy to is JEFFREY!

No all the other subhuman persons who did nothing to care for him yet claim to be related to him.

I have yet to see any posts from any family memebers or sympathizers expressing their remorse, and how they are greiving for Jeffrey. Because they have none and do not. It is disgusting.

Do not waste this site posting any more manipulative sympathy grabs for yourselves, it is not working, we are smarter than you.

Anonymous said...

anonymous....

I first heard Jeffrey Baldwin when I happened to tune into "Fifth Estate". Usually I avoid this stuff as I have a four year old son and cannot imagine anyone in this world treating another human being this way, especially a child.
Personally I believe every adult involved in this situation should be held accountable for this - they should all have blood on their hands...
Elva's son is just as guilty, sorry Fred, but I watched the interview of FE and I am sorry but in this world as adults, it's instinct to protect "AT ANY COST" our children. And Yes, Yvonne's response to her sons death was shallow and at the most lack of feelings on her part. Visiting her son and not knowing anything was wrong - please, as a Mother you can smell when something is wrong. It's called a bond "Yvonne" and I would have grabbed that little boy and ran, screamed, ripped his clothes off to show the world what was being done to my child. I would have laid in the middle of the street screaming help! You fight like an angry dog for your children - whether you are fighting against your family or an outsider.
No, I have no compassion for this woman or any one in that family - they failed this little boy in every human aspect of the word - kudos to Amanda. It's unfortunate that ony after death he is truly shown the truth of love .....
May the Devil already have all those souls that watched this little boy die!
Jeffrey sits with the Angels now - and may his soul return to this world to beautiful, loving parents!

Anonymous said...

Questions directed to the Pro CAS poster asked her to demonstrate personal knowledge that would support several sweeping statements she made. For example, one should not believe Yvonne has questions for her parents as “ She has been visiting the two jerks in jail for three years. “

Unfortunately, this poster ignores the question I asked, which suggests she had no real knowledge to make such assertions.

Incidently, there is nothing wrong with visiting someone in jail – but there is something wrong with creating a pejorative impression on the basis of statements you have little knowledge of. Unless you were present at the jail visits (any idea how many there were) why do you maintain Yvonne is lying?

The Pro CAS poster also claimed Yvonne defended her mother “off camera” denying her parents ever killed her son. Clearly, she was referring to the 5th Estate broadcast – as her first line indicates – but backtracks quickly in her response, now claiming Yvonne defended Jeffrey’s killers in and outside the courtroom. Again, no specifics are offered.

If the pro CAS poster were to deal with this matter fairly, she would recognize there are troubling aspects with this case from the outset. In her haste to label everyone connected with Jeffrey as a monster, she fails to notice his grandparents did not intentionally murder the child – Jeffrey was their paycheque and they had no reason to want him dead. This was confirmed by the court. Starting from that perspective, there is considerable probability that those around Jeffrey were themselves manipulated by Elva – a paid CAS employee. In the world of CAS, whatever she said was the law. When individuals voiced concerns, she always had an answer. Apparently, Yvonne has no knowledge of past incidents of abuse involving the grandparents, etc. She did not seem to know Elva was working against her with CAS. The picture in real time was not black and white.

The Pro CAS also implied that those such as Yvonne want this situation to simply to go away. Yet, it was Yvonne and Richard that answered questions on camera while Mary McConville ran away. Were they paid by the 5th Estate? Canadian news agencies seldom pay anyone for interviews, beyond expenses – if anyone can confirm this occurred, please post details on the blog.

The pro CAS poster is a lost cause. Readers should not forget other posts that have unfairly vilified others on this blog - Matthew Reid's grandmother, Fred Cotta, etc - while pedophile foster homes have been vigorously defended. There is little doubt that some readers keep attacking individuals to shift the spotlight away from CAS.

Nor do Lisa’s complaints convincingly support the monster label she has applied to Yvonne. Being materialistic is hardly a smoking gun - the economy is based on materialism. Children in hand me downs is standard practice in families with far greater income. Sharing a happy meal? - only an evil and conniving person would do that.

It’s entirely possible Yvonne inquired about insurance money for reason such as burial, legal defence and similar issues. Its entirely possible Richard asked for bail or that Yvonne asked for an accidental death certificate to be signed, as they didn't believe Elva tried to murder Jeffrey.

The fact remains that Jeffrey would be alive if left in the care of his parents. By all accounts, he was permanently removed for minor infractions of a transitory nature. Anyone that suggests these people had any real chance of recovering their children has little understanding of how CAS operates. “Offering” to get someone’s kids back from CAS would be funny if the situation weren’t so tragic.

There is a need to look at the facts with an open mind, without interjecting highly subjective opinions as proof these people should rot in jail. It should also be said that some readers interest in ignoring CAS' role in this (and thousands of other cases it's involved in each year) misses the point entirely.

Anonymous said...

CAS told Jeffrey's father he would never see his son again if he was not placed in Elva's home. As the boy's condition deteriorated, Elva's explanations sounded plausible. In fact, medical experts at the trial meticulously went through numerous conditions that create symptoms similar to those experienced by Jeffrey. In this setting, anyone removing a child in CAS custody would believe they faced criminal charges - a common outcome for parents who defend their children.

Anonymous said...

The lady who learned of Jeffrey on the 5th Estate owes it to herself to read posts on this site that deal with CAS' role in his death.

For one thing, CAS would likely regard you as a candidate for a Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy mom based on the actions you say you would take. With CAS, no one's children are safe - if you love your kids, a little research is in order. Children's Aid Society Corruption on A&E is a good place to start. Amanda has also posted links to sites exposing how CAS really operates.

Anonymous said...

You missed the point - when you are desparate and have no to listen to you ..... you try to make someone listen. Even it makes you look bad - we are talking about your child.
Obviously fighting the system at that moment in time is more important to some than your child!

Anonymous said...

You can use this post to defend yourselves all you want, but we all know the truth, all the adults are responsible for Jeffrey's death.

The bottom line is, you will never escape the truth no matter how you try to run from it - you killed Jeffrey.

In any event I hope all good people will go out for the RALLY at the courthouse on May 17, 2006.

Anonymous said...

According to one poster there are MANY "pro CAS" psters who DO NOT support Yvonne in any way. They feel she should be in jail also--read the posts.

Yes a loving mother would grab her son and run if he looked starving.

As for the person who stated the doctor listed many other conditions which could look like Jeffrey did--I am not sure what/where you read such bs. NO DOCTOR took the stand and said such a thing. In fact they all said the opposite.

It has become obvious you and Yvonne are one of the same. How else could you explain your supporting her --

Perhaps you and her could become friends--you probably have a lot in common regarding your children.

Anonymous said...

Whenever you can't respond to legitimate questioned that are raised, you respond with wild accusations and insults. In this case, your need to blindly lash out at individuals (while ignoring troubling questions and CAS' role in Jeffrey's death) has led you have completely misinterpreted the post.

Because there are several medical symptoms that resemble Jeffrey's, experts at the trial meticulously went through each one in order to discount them as probable causes of death. You may remember Elva originally stated that paint in Jeffrey's room and ointment were a factor.

It appears that some posters are so nuts they're now determined to attribute posts that do not agree with them to Jeffrey's parents - without any basis in fact. That should give neutral readers some idea of the credibility of their other posts.

Anonymous said...

To the poster who said:

I have yet to see any posts from any family memebers or sympathizers expressing their remorse, and how they are greiving for Jeffrey. Because they have none and do not. It is disgusting.

How does it follow that Jeffrey's family has no remorse or grief because they have not posted on this site? Jeffrey's father addressed those very points on the 5th Estate.

Anonymous said...

Please don't quote anything Elva said.....obviously lead paint was not the cause. Has anyone in their right mind heard of cortisone cream causing stunted growth--perhaps steroids ingested yes but cream no.

Go ahead support the losers....birds of a feather flock together.

Anonymous said...

Don't be so sure of yourself honey--most (you being the exception and perhaps some of your followers?) do NOT support any members of that clan including the incompetent parents.

Read the posts stupid.

Anonymous said...

You sure must have a lot in common with that clan....perhaps you can relate to them. Perhaps you feel you never got a fair shake from society so therefore you must support "your kind".

Get over it.

Lisa said...

To the anon...April 18th 12:39


I just want to say that maybe I wasn't to clear for you or your just daft. They (Richard and Yvonne) would make Jeffrey and his sister share a happy meal, ie Jeffrey would get the bun of the burger and his sister would get the meat! they would eat this regularly. Believe me when I say that Yvonne had this anger from as long as I have known her. Do you know her? Did you go through her hitting people and Rich at will? Did you see her throw a knife at a guy because he told her to stop being a selfish "B" and to get up with her first born instead of letting the baby cry herself to sleep in hunger? Were you there when she threw herself down a set of stairs while she was pregnant, resulting in a stillborn birth? I didn't think so, so before you judge my words know the whole story even though this is the tame parts. p.s. If you think that her anger is a result of her upbringing then I guess I should be worse then her as my parents beat me, threw me in my closet for days without food and would use a 2x4 to beat me in to line. Then while this was happening they would do drugs and drink away the money. I was also sexually abused for 10 years, it's not often you will meet a survivor like me, but let me asure you that my children are in my care and are well looked after. I work 2 jobs and still have time to take extra special care of my disabled son. If you are going to give her an excuse for her behaviour and give her a way out of being responsible for her sons death, then think again. Her life by the way was not as bad as you think. She just learned how to manipulate well because of it.

Anonymous said...

On the contrary, I have gotten a very fair shake from society - if you're looking for someone who has something in common with that "clan" you might want to check Lisa's post.

It's always somewhat suspect when a person embellishes a story so dramatically at the eleventh hour.

Anonymous said...

Unfortunately, there are several aspects of Lisa's account that don't add up.

For someone that is furious Jeffrey's parents failed to report him, why did Lisa not report Yvonne and Richard to CAS or the police if things were as bad as she claims they were?

Of course, the pro CAS poster will express no outrage at Lisa for failing to report - her anger is entirely reserved for the family.

Previously, Lisa stated that Jeffrey's parents did not drink and that Jeffrey met all his development milestones on time in their care.
She also mentioned Richard and Yvonne couldn't get any visitation of the children and that a lot of visits were cancelled on them. Through the press, we learned that the only time Jeffrey brightened was when his parents visited.

This picture is at considerable odds with Lisa's subsequent statement that the parents did nothing to get their kids back despite the chances she personally gave them. Again, why would Lisa be giving them any "chances" if the situation was anything like she has described?

In the final chapters of Jeffrey's life, Lisa seems to have had no contact with the family, yet expresses opinions about the parents, particularly Yvonne, that seem to be based on nothing more than suspicions and personal hatred.

Anonymous said...

Same old stuff...someone doesnt agree with you such as Lisa and she is knocked down. Her words are denied.

The facts are clear--many came out in the trial but were not printed in the paper.

It doesnt matter who posts what ...if you dont agree they must be making it up! You are so full of it it makes me sick. Anyone sitting through the trial knows the difference.

Face reality--Yvonne is an incompetent mother who should never have had children. And as incompetent as CCAS is taking her children away was the right thing--the wrong comes in when they handed them over to her "kin". If Yvonne would stop producing children CCAS would be out of her life.

If only she could find another way to obtain a welfare cheque....like getting a job!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Lisa: Ignore the idiot! There is soneone on this blog who denies anything that declares Yvonne incompetent.

This same person seems to have a lot in common with Yvonne--she can relate.

I believe you as do most on the blog. You hav nothing to gain by informing us of Yvonne's behaviour. Much of it came out in the trial--a trial the one who denys probably never attended.

She is too busy laying the blame solely at the feet of CCAS. As incompetent as they are if Yvonne would stop lying on her back they would be out of her life.

I believe your life was rough Lisa and you are one of the few survivors. Good for you--it has probably made you a stronger smarter person.

I know you have absolutely nothing to gain. Yvonne has plenty.

I wish the person who denies Yvonne did what you say she did would stop and think about it for awhile.

But her mind is made up...CCAS (according to her) targets good parents with messy houses.

Most can see through that..

Lisa said...

to anon.....I did call CAS before on Yvonne , but only for the reason of giving her support. I do believe that young parents can be successful parents, no matter what steps in life happened before. I thought Rich could be a great father, he's childish but was a very proud Papa. It was only my intentions for him to have the kids and all support, but he won't and wouldn't let her go. He could have had all the support of his wonderful family if could have gotten his head straight. I have nothing but anger at someone who blatantly makes teen moms look like shit. "here Mom take my kids, I'll make more for you." I remember Yvonne coming to me and telling me her Mom wanted her and Rich to be acting their age, they were encouraged to go to a Rave! I'm not sure if they did or not. I never said they were denied visitation all the time, but during the time they lived with me, Elva got her back up because she knew that these kids were at my house to straighten up, and she worried her gravy train would soon be over. So she would call and say " don't come over , so and so is sick, grounded, tired, etc..." Always an excuse. That is where I should have stepped in and called CCAS myself, but my biggest regret in life is that I didn't. I did go there soon after and had seen his middle sister for a minute, but Jeffrey was no where in sight. I spent my time with the baby and the oldest girl. By that time I was on the run in a diiferent city, 2 years later he died. My daughter remembers Jeffrey's sister, she also remembers my tears and heartache for a child I didn't give birth to but remember his smell and feel. I lost a baby boy 7 years ago and still haven't gotten over it. Yvonne has moved on to become a mother several times after Jeffrey and from the way she looked on the interview, it pretty much confirmed she is pregnant yet again. I hope that you can just stop trying to deny what went on, I have been nothing but honest about this and have no reason to lie, unlike the Kidman/Bottineau supporters

Anonymous said...

Reading the different posts about Yvonne and Richard. I think I am just trying to understand why as parents and especially Yvonne, more was not done. Whether someone is your Mother or not you have the right as a Mom yourself to question the situation.
Albeit we all know that the CAS in every since of word is responsible for the little guys death....
Yvonne knew from her own childhood how her Mother treated children and played favorites - I just help but feel they did not exercise every possible avenue
I do truly believe that Elva had no intentions of killing Jeffrey or letting him die, she was simply fueled by her own selfish needs.
The bottom line is that sweet little boy died with what it seems to me as no adult even tried to defend him.

Anonymous said...

Lisa: I am sure most bloggrs believe your side of this horrific story.

Common sense tells most you have no reason to lie.

Anonymous said...

Lisa - I do agree with everything you say!
My Father came from a very bad childhood but he and his brother learned to fight back because they knew what was going on in their home was not normal!
You can overcome adversity or succumb to it, we all, each and everyone of us at some point in ours lives know what's right and wrong.....

Anonymous said...

It is rather strange that some posts appear determined to hold the family accountable while ignoring CAS' much greater role in his death.

Anonymous said...

In my opinion, CCAS should be criminally accountable for its actions. I'm astounded that organizations that show such negligence account to no one even to the point of that director thumbing her nose at the public on the fifth estate show.

Lisa said...

I blame the people living in the house and the people who were suppose to be responsible for the precious cargo in the house....including Rich and Yvonne, CCAS and anyone who had knowledge of what was happening inside. I didn't see it, but felt it. I feel guilt everyday for not being able to stop this from happening, but I couldn't call in on a feeling. I wish I could just hold the kids and tell them that there are so many people out there that love them without even seeing them, and for the oldest to know that she is not alone. I don't think there is any words out there to express how Sue and her family feel, they lost a huge part of their lives and CCAS will not give them back what belongs to them, their blood.

Anonymous said...

Fred Crotta: If you saw the condition the children were in, you had a responsiblity to take action. I'm truly sorry for the abuse you suffered, but Jeffrey and any other abused child must be taken care of. If not by his direct family, than by anyone and everyone. You had your chance. I too have 2 young children, one with a chronic illness that requires constant daily care-and I'm a single parent. I would never in a million years think I had the right to be evil to them. Your whole family could have done better. So what if someone is told they can't see the child. I would have created the biggest stink in the world to get access to the children. Every family of a child whether they live with the parents, in foster care or adoption should be involved in some way. What the hell has happened to this world?

Anonymous said...

To the poster defending Elva I totally disagree, I think she is an evil bitch and that she knew every bit of what she was doing to those poor kids.

Anonymous said...

Does anyone know how are Jeffrey's siblings doing? I hope that they are happy and far away from "the family" Can we do something to help them?

Anonymous said...

I have read the children were sepereated from the original foster home. Can someone confirm this? Did their therapist believe they were better off without eachother as seeing eachother brought back memories? Please confirm this isn't true...Have all adults lost their minds?

Anonymous said...

Yes the kids were taken from each other. I think that a very good therapist needs to help them to reunite and to help them with their loss and trauma.

Anonymous said...

I am from the Maritimes and have two friends that are Case Workers for Social Services. It's my understanding by them that they make frequent visits to the home that the children are living and actually make notes of the visits and make frequent assessments. Is this a practice in Ontario?!
I am trying to understand how this child was forgotten and left to die.

Anonymous said...

You people are like a pack of wolves praying upon yourselves. Keep it up. It's highly entertaining.

Anonymous said...

because their case worker only cared for her pay check not these kids what a shame ,MARGRITA YOU ARE A CHILD ABUSER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Oh, wonderful. You are starting to hear voices, and believe that postings are from people you know...you are so messed. Keep listening to those little voices in your head....

Anonymous said...

Fred, I know life was difficult for you. I know I can't relate to what
you went through, but I couldn't ignore the little shiver that ran up my spine when I saw a photo of you with your arm around Elva. I guess I can't fathom that someone would actually visit this totally deranged person. Please take good care of your children, try your hardest to stop that dysfunctional pattern. It doesn't take an education or a lot of money to raise happy, healthy children - if your priorities are in the right place.

Lisa, I believe you. I would not be surprised if Elva is manipulating this family out of her prison cell. I imagine she still has them in her clutches. I'm also certain that she probably hates Jeffrey more now .......blaming HIM for her present predicament. How the family can display loyalty toward her by visiting her and the other monster,is incomprehesible to me.

Yvonne, why are you having more children? You don't have the emotional stability to do so. Take an anger management course. If we as a society took better care of our children, we would dramatically change this world in one generation.

Children's Aid society, you disgust me.

Jeffrey, I cry for you and achingly wish that I knew of you so I could have kicked that door down to free and protect you.


Why is Yvonne having more children? She obviously doesn't want them - how else would

Anonymous said...

Yvonne is a poster child for unfit parenting.

The factory remains open and as she keeps producing them CAS keeps taking them away. Talk about "baby brokers"--she is providing them with the children.

For her it is a bigger welfare cheque. For the children a life of misery.

Tara said...

I heard Yvonneon the fifth estate saying how "pissed" she was at her mom. Excuse me..."pissed"???They killed your son and you let it happen. Ever person who did nothing is as guilty as Elva and Norman. And telling Amanda to stay out of it,(fred crotta) too funny.Are you for real buddy. I didnt even know little Jrffrey but he's been in my thoughts and in my heart more than he ever was with any of you pathetic idiots. He is everyones child now, you crotta and the whole family lost that priviledge when you stood there and watched him slowly die. You're beyond sick.

Anonymous said...

The point is, if Lisa's last name was Baldwin, she would be on the lynch mob's Most Wanted List for supporting the parents while witnessing their heinous actions.

Anonymous said...

Anyone who witnessed this hideous crime in action over the course of years should be punished. Who could have spoken for Jeffrey if not another adult? Even Jeffrey's siblings knew something was very wrong. Have the kids of the killer's daughter been taken away from her? All of the adults who had access to that house and the kids had a huge responsibility which they didn't fulfill. Please, let's make sure this never happens again.

Anonymous said...

The factory remains open and as she keeps producing them CAS keeps taking them away. Talk about "baby brokers"--she is providing them with the children.

I agree it would not be wise for her to have any more children. But does it not disturb you that child welfare is a factory and a business of taking children for other people?

Anonymous said...

In re-reading some of this blog someone is even attacking the Fifth Estate for reporting this - now if that does not answer how corrupt the CAS and the system is what would. The Fifth Estate does not pay people to be on the program, people go on their own accord. This story was important to be told and Jeffrey deserves for his story to be told. His suffering is off the scale in abuse. If people want to bash the Fifth Estate for airing it then go ahead, but it is too late. CAS is under fire, but in truth they have been for a long time. This case just amplified the whole thing onto a different level. It is absurd to try and discredit the Fifth Estate for a solid investigative report, done in care for Jeffrey Baldwin.

There is only so much that people can take from the CAS before enough is enough. This case was it, and it is prompting people to come together to change a system that is dysfunctional and archaic.

Anonymous said...

Well said!

Anonymous said...

KUDOS to the person who defends the Fifth Estate for their story on Jeffrey Baldwin..... the child could not speak for himself as his life was taken away from him.

Anonymous said...

Hey,Lisa Thanks for your story.Try not to feel guilty.Jeffrey is at peace now .Tha memorial is in a perfect place.He is out there playing in the park where he should have been able to go.I pray for those siblings and for Jeffrey.I know that he is happy now, but it breaks my heart to think of the siblings.This will stay with them for the rest of thair lives.Foster family if you are reading this ,PLEASE help them!!!

Anonymous said...

To Fred Crotta - Where was your big mouth when Jeffrey and his sister were suffering? Oh-you were "pigging-out". NO one wants to hear from YOU, you creep.

Lisa said...

Just a reply to the person who said "if Lisa's last name was Baldwin...." My last name isn't but don't let the name Baldwin fool you, the only Baldwin who let Jeffrey down was Richard. Sue, her husband and the Baldwin siblings and cousins are all great people with true hearts. So think before you speak their name with an evil tone! Also to everyone else Thank you for your kind words, but nothing will help me get rid of the guilt/hurt I feel for Jeffrey.

Anonymous said...

I know how you feel Lisa,I dont know Jeffrey but looking at my little boy I see him in my childs eyes.My GOD what he must of felt.If he only knew how much we all love him.How era his siblings doing?

Anonymous said...

The poster of April 28, 2006 5:37:12 PM:

Well said. Crotta has a big mouth which he only uses for his own pathetic self interest. I have no sympathy for thism manipulative bastard, clearly the apple does not fall far from the tree. Crotta Too bad Crotta's mpother wasn't left to finish the job she started on her son when she had custody of him. Maybe that would have prevented Jeffrey's death years later.

Anonymous said...

I can't stop thinking of the conditions Jeffrey was in. When I'm hungry I think of him, when my youngest child is goofing off, I think 'that stupid b@!(!? took away such a beautiful addition to this earth'-she's the same age Jeffrey was when he finally passed. As I'm out in the sunshine, I keep thinking of him confined to that room. He had so much to offer the world (as any child does), and those idiots, all those adults living in the home, and his biological parents harmed him so brutally. I know Jeffrey is in a much more peaceful place now, but it's disgusting to think he hung on for so long waiting for someone to help him. Help never came. Are his sister and other siblings receiving counselling?

Anonymous said...

Amanda & All:

I thought my heart couldn't possibly ache anymore than it has since I heard of Jeffrey's short, horrific life. Until I read this (below). I think of him often, and look forward to the day I can hug him & give him the love he deserved...
TORONTO -- Out of the mouths of babes, via the splendid woman who was for almost three years their foster mother, yesterday came the full horror of the maltreatment and degradation of the boy named Jeffrey Baldwin and its ruinous effects upon his young siblings who were forced to watch it.
It is a tale of child abuse in all its vile form that saw a five-year-old child die from starvation and three others be wounded to their very cores.

The foster mother, who can be identified only as Karen to protect the identity of Jeffrey's two surviving sisters and brother, was testifying at the murder trial of the children's maternal grandparents, Elva Bottineau and Norman Kidman.

Ms. Bottineau and Mr. Kidman, now 54 and 53 respectively, are being tried without a jury before Ontario Superior Court Judge David Watt.

Karen was testifying about disclosures Jeffrey's siblings made to her during their first eight months with her family.

Jeffrey died on Saturday, Nov. 30, 2002, and his siblings were immediately apprehended by the Catholic Children's Aid Society of Toronto and arrived at Karen's house just three days later.

The following are excerpts from the notes she made, usually within hours of the children's statements.

The excerpts are supplemented by Karen's own descriptions yesterday about the circumstances.

Dec. 3, 2002: This was the first dinner the three youngsters, then all under the age of eight, had at Karen's house. The little girl who had been locked away with Jeffrey in a foul bedroom where the two were made to live immersed in their own waste ate her stew "with her hands."

The big sister, Karen said, informed her: "She doesn't eat with us, she eats on the floor."

Dec. 4: After a full day, Karen realized that she couldn't "fill up" the locked-away sister. "If I gave her two bowls of cereal, she wanted four; four apples, she wanted six. She had an insatiable appetite."

Dec. 6: As Karen was making dinner, the little boy "asked where the pig wall was. He said at his other house, "They had a wall of pigs," which, the little boy explained, was where Jeffrey and his sister would be forced to eat.

Dec. 8: Before lunch, the little boy told Karen that "it's way better here." Why is that, she asked? " 'Cause nobody gets in trouble for pissing and *!#@^#ng in bed."

Dec. 9: At bedtime, Karen was helping the locked-away sister brush her teeth with a tube of Barney toothpaste when the little boy asked for help with his brand-new PJs. As she went to him, Karen noticed he hadn't flushed the toilet.

"Buddy," she said in her gentle way, "you know why we flush the toilet?"

"So the pigs don't drink the *!#@^#nd-piss water?" he replied without missing a beat, and as she looked over, the locked-away sister was drinking from the toilet.

She stopped the little girl, rebrushed her teeth and explained that in this house, when you wanted a drink, you got it from the tap.

Dec. 10: The locked-away sister was playing with her doll, named Jeffrey after her dead brother. She said she liked it at the new house. Karen asked why, and the little girl replied, " 'Cause I can eat at the table and my room smells clean and nobody bangs my head with Jeffrey's head."

Dec. 12: That night, the oldest girl was angry, slamming doors and pacing like a caged tiger. "What's up?" Karen asked. The child replied, "Everyone knew Jeffrey was gonna die. Everyone was telling mom [Ms. Bottineau] to take him to hospital."

Dec. 13: In the afternoon, Karen and the older girl went for a walk.

She told Karen that in the days immediately preceding his death, Jeffrey "would cry, but no tears would come [he was dehydrated, as well as starved, experts have testified], and if you touched him, he would cry like it hurt." The girl was riven with guilt.

Karen told her she was "the bravest kid I'd ever known and I was proud of her".

Dec. 14: While giving the locked-away sister a bath, she confided that "bad things happened in the tub" at her grandparents' house. . . . She then spread her legs, pointed to her private parts and said that Mr. Kidman had hurt her there. She was telling Karen that he had used the handle of a wooden spoon when the older girl burst into the bathroom and said, "If you're going to tell it, get it right -- it was the metal spoon!"

Jan. 30: As they were planning a memorial for Jeffery with a local priest, the oldest girl said, "I don't want to go to hell."

Feb.1: The locked away sister was eating so fast at the table, she threw up. The little boy cried out, "If she pukes it, she has to eat it, right Mom?" At this point, Karen said, her own two youngsters "were losing their minds."

Feb. 6: In the family room, the oldest girl was looking at pictures of Jeffrey. Karen saw her eyes welling up and asked her what she was thinking abou. "The last day," the girl replied. "The day he died." She said Jeffrey had come down from his prison bedroom, and been "stood" by Ms. Bottineau in his usual spot. "Right away, he fell down," the girl said. He was so weak he was "stumbling and crashing into stuff," and Ms. Bottineau had furiously taken himj back upstairs, "spanked him" and was pulling " his head up by the hair and making him watch TV." That night, as Jeffrey lay dying, she said Ms. Bottineau called for her, "to get her nail file so she could file a nail."

July 26: Karen found the oldest girl sobbing before a picture of Jeffrey. "They *!#@^#* killed my brother," she said. She told Karen, "she hated all of those *!#@^#*s" who had lived in the house and done nothing to help Jeffrey. "He was just a little boy," she kep repeating. Amid all this horror, no story was more poignant than the one in notes dated Feb. 8, 2002.

Jeffrey's memorial was the next day. Karen was struggling with the eulogy and the oldest girl was having a hard time contributing to the bright Bristol board poster they were making in their brothers honour. Karen suggested they talk about what they had doen with Jeffrey, hoping it would all help them. The children had been allowed to do so little with Jeffrey, their memories, like their lives, were dwarfed. But the oldest girl recalled the night that the other youngsters had been taken to watch the fireworks, Jeffery and the locked-away sister were left behind in their dank prison. When she got home, she sat in the hall outside Jeffrey's room, and told him about it through the locked door, describing what she had seen as best she could, so he might share som of the pleasure. On the Bristol board, she drew exploding stars for him. At its centre, the poster read, "We love you Jeffrey."

Article by Christie Blatchford.
Source: Globe and Mail

Anonymous said...

Crotta (crotte) in french means SHIT! I belive they (elva, norman and the others who knew about Jeffrey's maltreatments) will suffer as much as this little boy did. I admire your work Amanda...and you do mind your own business when you speak loud and clear your mind. Thoses kids need people like you and NO, WE WILL NOT SHUT UP! STUPID CATHOLIC'S DECISIONS!
My son is 5 years old and if someone had only touch is hair...they would be dead by now. Mr. Crotta...and his familly's crisis! What familly? Do you even know the defenition of familly? You deserve to roth in your crotta!

Thank you Amanda!!!
Vicky, a mother from Montreal.

Anonymous said...

I am not surprised by some of the comments I have read on this blog. I had only read about this case briefly and thought it very sad. It wasn't until I met Mr. Crotta that I had the opportunity to view the 5th estate program. I feel extremely bad for young Jeffery. As for Mr. Crotta I wish to report to everyone that he is a man who is incredible with children. He is definetly a man who watches over then to ensure their saftey and well being. NEVER have i seen him take his past out on anyone. It is very unfortunate what Fred has gone through, he surely could teach alot of people who think they are doing a good job with their own kids what they really should be doing. You keep your head high Fred. there are people who see the real you and not what society thinks you are. (this is cam)

Anonymous said...

Wow this blog has got me lost and confused. Is it a memorial for Jeffrey, or an attack on Mr. Crotta? Amanda I have no clue who you are, but you aren't doing your homework very well! I use to know Mr. Crotta personally, and that letter was not written by his hands. Fred suffered slight retardation from the abuse he suffered as a child, and would never defend those two. Nor would he be against Jeffery's memorial.

Before you people go judging and pointing fingers, make sure the person your pointing them at is the actual author of an email. Fred wouldn't think to use words like interfere, and consult. The punctuation marks are in their proper places, and the proper punctuation marks are used. That is not the way Fred writes at all.

Never does he use big words, because he doesn't understand them. Never does his punctuations sit at the end of a sentence. Fred always puts a space after his words, then the punctuation. It doesn't matter if it's a period, question mark, or a semi-colon. There is always, always, always a space between his last word and whatever mark he needs. If there's anything at all.

Now I'm not sure why you feel the need to attack a man who has suffered enough at the hands of these evil beings, but please get your facts straight. If that letter is from anyone, it's from a Kidman/Bottineau clan posing as Fred.

This is an example of Fred's writing.

this is how i right .

Please stop attack a man who was almost the first Jeffrey.

Kidman/Bottineau you guys are sick, disgusting, and deserve to be exactly where your mother is. You're taking a man who was so badly abused he doesn't know right from wrong, and exploiting him on this site. You should all hang your head in shame. (And Yes Fred has been tested. His retardation doesn't give him full comprehension of his actions.)

Thank you for allowing me to say my piece. Amanda please the next time you decide to attack someone. Please make sure you have spoke to him face to face.

Anonymous said...

Well I would just like to say that and don't like to admit it at all but the monster Elva is my mother's sister and my mom and most of her family isn't like her and seriously sickens me and boggles my mind how they got to be that sick